106 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

Here and there I see people claiming that the shorter durations of IS lasers compared to clan lasers are a clear advantage.

I took a closer look at this, and it turns out that there really isn't any overall advantage.

While it's true that IS lasers have shorter durations, they also has a lower damage potential per duration.

As the table below shows, some IS lasers have better DPS than some Clan lasers and vice versa.

DPS is what is key, but I've also put in Damage per Equal Duration (DED) which shows how much damage each laser does when hitting the target for the same duration (IS weapon duration).

Depending on if you compare CERLL with LL or ERLL it's either a draw or +1 to IS for DPS.
It should however be compared to ERLL as the CERLL shoots further than both IS Large Lasers.
So in pure duration/DPS it's an overall draw.




When both IS and Clan lasers start to fire it's an overall draw, but, then the IS laser stops firing, and the Clan laser continues to put damage on target. From further away.

Now, please, stop saying that IS has an advantage in laser duration.

Edited by Yellonet, 14 September 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Blame Paul.


Or whomever handles balance now. I thought he was removed after the 2 second ERLL burn time+1 Ghost Heat limit?

Edited by Mcgral18, 14 September 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Yellonet, on 14 September 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Here and there I see people claiming that the shorter durations of IS lasers compared to clan lasers are a clear advantage.

I took a closer look at this, and it turns out that there really isn't any overall advantage.

While it's true that IS lasers have shorter durations, they also has a lower damage potential per duration.

As the table below shows, some IS lasers have better DPS than some Clan lasers and vice versa.

DPS is what is key, but I've also put in Damage per Equal Duration (DED) which shows how much damage each laser does when hitting the target for the same duration (IS weapon duration).

Depending on if you compare CERLL with LL or ERLL it's either a draw or +1 to IS for DPS.
It should however be compared to ERLL as the CERLL shoots further than both IS Large Lasers.
So in pure duration/DPS it's an overall draw.




When both IS and Clan lasers start to fire it's an overall draw, but, then the IS laser stops firing, and the Clan laser continues to put damage on target. From further away.

Now, please, stop saying that IS has an advantage in laser duration.

Those are just the weapon stats, they're meaningless without context. There are negative duration quirks for nearly all of the most powerful omnipods and positive ones on nearly every laser boating IS mech, so without factoring in those you can't draw any conclusions.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Been harping about that since they did it.

If PGI wants IS lasers to have a much shorter range then they need to be superior once you get into optimal range. You can do that with RoF, burn time, temperature, etc but that has to be the case if you want the two tech bases to be dynamically balanced.

[1453 R]

People have known about lower Sphere impulse damage for quite some time.

The problem is that their response is nigh-universally "Let's OMGWTFBBQDONALD TRUMP-ITIZE those dirty fitlhy Clanbeams!", and then say things like 5-damage, 1.5s cERML that hit to 300m for 6 heat is perfectly balanced.

Yeah...no. Just no.

0.8s iML, at 5 damage and 3 heat to 270, pitted against 1.25s cERML at 6 damage and 5 heat to 405, works out. Remember - the Clan weapon is an ER laser. You'll get your own ER guns at some point (I'd honestly prefer for "at some point" to be now already, but if wishes were fishes...), so kneecapping Clanbeam range just means your own ER guns get to be pointless some point in the future. We get higher damage, but you guys get higher impulse and significantly better DPH, and when iER becomes available en mass, the range becomes a wash. Shorten your pulsebeam durations to 0.33, make them seriously excellent brawling weapons, then trim up Clan pulsebeam range while also shortening their burns, if not to nearly that degree.

The weapons need retuning, not being at the epicenter of an extinction-level Nerf Asteroid event.

[_____]

The duration is not about DPS but about 1. face time to output full or nearly full damage and 2. concentration of damage to specific components. This is why the RVN-2X LL duration quirk a few months ago (now dialed back) was huge. That and the heat quirk instantly lifted it from tier 4 to tier 1/2 in lights. When an enemy player can react to a peek in about 0.3-0.5 sec, you have about about that much time to do a laser burn then go back to hiding. And that burn will go all or mostly CT or wherever you intended to put it.

[Kira Onime]

You give numbers without any context.
Might as well throw in some bananas while you're at it since it means nothing already.

[Yellonet]

BlackhawkSC, on 14 September 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

The duration is not about DPS but about 1. face time to output full or nearly full damage and 2. concentration of damage to specific components. This is why the RVN-2X LL duration quirk a few months ago (now dialed back) was huge. That and the heat quirk instantly lifted it from tier 4 to tier 1/2 in lights. When an enemy player can react to a peek in about 0.3-0.5 sec, you have about about that much time to do a laser burn then go back to hiding. And that burn will go all or mostly CT or wherever you intended to put it.

Higher DPS means delivering more damage for equal facetime.
The DED value is how much damage is dealt if only the facetime for the IS weapon is available.

Yeah, the 2X will surely be toned down more.

[Suko]

I frickin' hate the clan burn time. I take my Catapult out and feel like a beast. Twisting and turning to absorb damage. With my MadCat, I basically stand there and eat a facefull of autocannon rounds as I wait the excruciatingly long time for the damn things to finish. I don't care what any number nerds say, the damn IS layers let me survive a brawl way better than the clan lasers.

Edited by Suko, 14 September 2015 - 03:41 PM.

[Evan20k]

Basically, C-ERML > IS ML in every possible way.

[Yellonet]

Suko, on 14 September 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I frickin' hate the clan burn time. I take my Catapult out and feel like a beast. Twisting and turning to absorb damage. With my MadCat, I basically stand there and eat a facefull of autocannon rounds as I wait the excruciatingly long time for the damn things to finish. I don't care what any number nerds say, the damn IS layers let me survive a brawl way better than the clan lasers.

Depending on what weapon you have you could as the table shows just allow for a shorter burn on target before you twist and still deal the same damage as an IS laser.

[CtrlAltWheee]

I'm okay with either longer c-erl durations to even it out or longer clan cooldowns. Or both.

Good post. With laser duration quirks I feel a lot of IS mechs are in a good place for close-range knife fights. This adds some food for thought. Would be cool to see something like firestarter vs arctic cheetah DED.

[Coolant]

OP is assuming the fight happens out in the open with slow mechs so the full beam duration hits the target. The big advantage IS has is that there is a better chance of getting the full damage done before the enemy mech goes behind cover.

[Lord0fHats]

Because cover is important in MWO. Being able to shoot out your damage and shuffle back to cover faster is an advantage.

[Yellonet]

Coolant, on 14 September 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

OP is assuming the fight happens out in the open with slow mechs so the full beam duration hits the target. The big advantage IS has is that there is a better chance of getting the full damage done before the enemy mech goes behind cover.

Obviously you didn't read or understand the OP (original post).

Lord0fHats, on 14 September 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

Because cover is important in MWO. Being able to shoot out your damage and shuffle back to cover faster is an advantage.

And that goes for you too.

[LordKnightFandragon]

At this point, I fail to see how duration even really plays a part in lasers balance, since really, once you get a hang of aiming and stuff, they are just plain amazing. Hence, why laser vomit is the meta. Its not because "beam time spreads my damage all over". CUz, I mean, if PPD was such the overriding factor, PPCs and Gauss would still be the meta, inspite of the nerfs to PPCs.

As it sits now, lasers, both IS and clan are the meta b/c of dmg/weight/heat/range ratio vs other weapons. PPCs for the heat generated are just not worth it, PPD or not. While the 4x CERPPC WHK is busy overheating after fired 40 dmg, 10 at a time, the 4x CLPL WHK or even the CERLL WHK is still busy firing 56 or 44 dmg 26 or 22 at a time. THe Lasers are even easier to aim with, in that they basically are hit scan and have a nice beam to the target. And when PPC builds in general are not really even viable on a Warhawk, they sure as hell are not on anything with fewer heatsinks.

I kinda stopped worrying much about beam time after having played with the 4x CLPL Warhawk and a few other laser builds, and after a large number of games in my PPC Warhawk. The differences in performance, ease of use and overall effectiveness is quite vast.

[Lord0fHats]

Yellonet, on 14 September 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Obviously you didn't read or understand the OP (original post).

And that goes for you too.

Yeah... Clans have a higher damage ratio, but IS have a lower duration (on some chassis' sickeningly low).But the OP is basically ignoring the issue of cover, which is what is being referenced when beam duration as an advantage/disadvantage is brought up. In an ideal balance this would even out, but it generally doesn't for a number of reasons. Namely the often poor hard point lay out on IS mechs, map design, and the ease with which Clan mech's can load up on front end damage.

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 September 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

PPCs and Gauss would still be the meta, inspite of the nerfs to PPCs.

Gauss is meta.

[Lykaon]

Satan n stuff, on 14 September 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

Those are just the weapon stats, they're meaningless without context. There are negative duration quirks for nearly all of the most powerful omnipods and positive ones on nearly every laser boating IS mech, so without factoring in those you can't draw any conclusions.

And very soon all those weapon quirks go away and we are left with the data as presented.

[Davegt27]

Just noticed this



2 lasers fired at the same time causes a heat spike lol

[sycocys]

You also left off damage per heat which is actually a pretty critical part of their balance currently.

And didn't take into account any of the ghost heat functions as Davegt showed.